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lourivera
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Viola da Gamba sound  
« on: Jun 7th, 2010, 10:25pm »
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I wrote to Myriad asking for a Viola da Gamba sound, I even offered to pay up to $500 USD for it. I was told by Didier that I should start a new thread on the forum. So here I am.
The best sound I can come up with is using Slow Violin stripped of its vibrato with a slight reverb.  It is far better than the lugubriously dark timbre of the cello sound but it still lacks the nasally shimmer of the fretted viole.
Any ideas? Anyone?
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Rant: I cannot understand how the Myriad library can have 8 types of bagpipes, innumerable accordions, a "Natural" Bowed Glass, et al and not have, at the very least, a Bass Viol.
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #1 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 7:42pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2010, 10:25pm, lourivera wrote:
I wrote to Myriad asking for a Viola da Gamba sound, I even offered to pay up to $500 USD for it. I was told by Didier that I should start a new thread on the forum. So here I am.
The best sound I can come up with is using Slow Violin stripped of its vibrato with a slight reverb.  It is far better than the lugubriously dark timbre of the cello sound but it still lacks the nasally shimmer of the fretted viole.
Any ideas? Anyone?
.
.
Rant: I cannot understand how the Myriad library can have 8 types of bagpipes, innumerable accordions, a "Natural" Bowed Glass, et al and not have, at the very least, a Bass Viol.

Probably because they had plenty of pipers and accordionists at hand and no viola player.
Yet, the sound could be sampled into HA and used as a personal intrument... provided someone had a computer+HA+a good mike and sound card+a viola.
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muddle
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound   da_gamba_final.mp3
« Reply #2 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 12:48am »
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If no one comes up with a real viola da gamba or samples from same, it may be possible to make  an acceptable synthesized version and then sample it as a mui instrument.
( Remembering that a  mui instrument is usually less responsive)  
 The attachment is  done on  on a modern synth, the last burst is more cello/viola based, the first two more violin/viola.  
It's just my idea of an ancient sound, and so would  need to be matched to real examples .. perhaps next time I have broadband access I can find an example on Utube.
It still might not be possible to match exactly,  so will wait in hope that some real da gamba player arrives.  
 
 
cheers muddle
 
 
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #3 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 11:05am »
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Oh wow!  there certainly are  examples on You tube.  
Wonderful sounds.  
And a lot of other really good older music, very well performed even when on modern instruments.  
 
Not time here to do a proper link  
search u tube for  da gamba  >> " Karl Friedrich Abel WKO 207 per viola da gamba solo Nima Ben David "  
 
and for  sheer fun.."Christina Pluhar
L'Arpeggiata"
 
This person is happy!  
 
muddle
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Olivier Guillion
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #4 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 11:34am »
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In order to let the users of this forum try to adjust settings of HA to find the closest sound, is it possible to find both the MIDI file of a piece, and the MP3 of the same piece, played by a real instrument?
 
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muddle
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #5 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 11:18am »
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A sample mp3 and score woudl be very good i think,  and perhaps it coud also give some idea of what style of music is to be matched.  
 
 
A  note  ....
 
Sorry, .a   U tube search is not very satisfactory ..   here are proper links.  
if they appear correctly  
 
The first one is to the viola da gamba playing  Wko 205,   slower and richer than the 207 .  
Egad !  Nima Ben David  is  quite something.      
 
 
 
 
And the one which is  so  lively/amusing ,  not much viola but ... >>  
 
 
 
Is that the harp  she is hitting with little  ' hammers' ?    
 
  -------------------------------
 
 
Lourivera ,  and anyone thinking about  making a mui viola da gamba, there is one thing to consider.
 
 It is very noticeable on the real instrument that the played strings, not just the open ones, can have  long fading reverberant end.  
Very much part of the sound and feel.
 
I've tried setting a long release to a test sound and there may have to be a compromise here.  
You can't get the long release  without creating lots of unwanted 'stringy echoes."  in other notes.
 
If you have a short release it doesn't work because a held note ( to imitate the open strings) doesn't fade.  You could possibly use volume parameter curves , but even then it may be a case of having two instruments with different release times, on seperate staves.
 
I wish anyone luck who tries this.  The more I listen to the wko 205  ( saved via   keepvid.com)  the more one hears the wide variety of articulation and subtlety of the sound.
 
A basic imitation of timbre seems to be fairly straight forward but that constantly changing  attack and tone. Oh dear.  
 And listen to the faster 207,  how there is a ' slithery-bow- scrape- noise "  emerging through it.  ... hmmm.
 
I hope Lourivera,  you don't expect a version indistinguishable from the real thing. !
 
cheers, muddle
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Sylvain Machefert
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #6 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 12:03pm »
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I think a friend has made a viola da gamba. I don't see her often and I've never seen her viola, but I should try to contact her and record some instruments she has made.
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lourivera
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound   Boy_Playing_Viol.jpg
« Reply #7 on: Jun 11th, 2010, 11:22pm »
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Thanks to everybody who responded.  I have a Viola da Gamba, it's the instrument I play. I didn't realize the sound could be "sampled" into a HA usable file.  How does one go about doing that?
 
What's a MUI instrument? I can't find it on Google.
 
Since I'm so fond of the viol and of the music written for it, I'm very familiar with the YouTube websites that specialize in it. Probably the best and most varied in style is http://www.youtube.com/user/ernststolz. On the other hand, Nima be David is the reason I took up the viol again after 30 years; hearing her play inspired me.
 
 
 
 
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #8 on: Jun 12th, 2010, 5:13am »
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Hi  Louriva,  have to say I  like  the look and style of the Viola d G.  Has atmosphere.  
 
Anyway .....
To make your own instrument for HA, the basic process  is that you record a range of single instrument notes  from  low to high,  in the style or articulation you wish to represent.
These sounds,  in the form of wav files,  are then 'imported' into a single file ( a mui file.. e.g.   viola da gamba.mui ).
When you import  the file you also write in the note at which the sample was made and the range for it to be played.
The file also contains other info.  
I will give masses more detail if you want to go ahead.   There are a few tricks with multi sample files.  
The file can be given to others,  just as  computer file,  if wanted.  
 
There is  a simple description of making  a user intrument  in the "experience sharing"  on this web site.
 
  -------------------------------
 
Couple of  thoughts.
.  
A basic need is a reasonable quality recorder whose output can be transferred somehow to a PC so that it can become  a  .wav  file for import to HA.  
You would have to make a few test recordings in different  rooms and mic positions until your ear was satisfied.  
You are the one who knows what the instrument should/could  sound like.
 
A modern digital recorder would be good  because the data can be transferred without loss to your computer and converted if necessary.
 Perhaps you have a friend or aquaintance with such?  
There are very nice small digital recorders for music these days  with inbuilt high quality stereo mics.  
I don't know,  maybe even some good video cameras have a high  quality.  the mic is likely to be the the weak point.
 
 
 A  personal rave for a minute >>.
 
 As long as the sound is not  distorted,  it is not the quality of the recording,  so much as the musicality and skill in making the original sound   that makes a good result .  
From even a middle quality mp3  one can still hear immediately  that the original sound is resonant, detailed  and alive,   or  flat and unmusical.  
There are numbers of free samples and soundfonts across the web, but despite high quality waveforms the end result is  lifeless.  
( this a frustrated would-be user here)  
 
Oh yes.  Some people  record just about every note of the instrument range.  Hmm. for some intruments yes.   But the best violin ones I have, in fact,  have large intervals between sampled notes, up to a fourth .   Its all in the performer.    Long sustained notes are often done very carefully ... which shows.  The attack of the sound is often a weak point. No life.  
 
I would like to suggest ,  if you do this , have some fun, and make something maybe a bit startling, and expressive?  
Well.. i don't really know,  but there seems to be lot of variation in Nima's playing.    
You could make a set of different samples for each style you like , madly attacked strings, long soulful bows, lightly skimming bows  ..   whatever.  
Besides, you can judge,..  does VdeG playing often involve long sustained ( no break in bow turn) playing?  if not, the sound need not be looped which will make life easier.  
 
There are likely to be limits i don't know about.  Maybe just any plain sampling is better than none!  
( end of ill -advised rant )  
 
Umm  yes.  well. .. if you can sample your instrument there are people here who I am sure( I certainly would)  would make it into a mui instrument for you.  
And for everyone else if you did not mind.  
And Myriad would always like a new sound in the gold base if it worked well..  
   
cheers, and good luck.  Muddle.
 
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #9 on: Jun 12th, 2010, 1:58pm »
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Oh yes,..
 if one has a pc with a reasonable sound card, ( even my  old creative sound blaster live records quite well)  one can use that as the sound recorder.  
You just need >>
1 a good microphone ( borrow/hire?)
Those simpler pc ones just might do if you find it records the sound as you like to hear it.  Could try it anyway.  
Other mic types may need a small mixer unit or amp to feed a good signal to the card,  
2.  a long enough lead to get out of recording range of the noise made by the pc itself.  
 
If the room acoustics are to your taste  that is.
 
Remoteness from pc might mean it is best to record many trial samples in one long take, and edit afterwards.  
I use a simple free program which can save out selected parts of a main file, leaving it unchanged.   Very helpful.
 
You can see on the notes about the gold base on this site who has done instrument recording already,  perhaps they can  give some advice.  
 
I had better fall silent on this business.   Feeling  very self conscious  suddenly.
 
regards,  Muddle.
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schisma
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #10 on: Jun 12th, 2010, 2:14pm »
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Muddle pose la question :
 
Is that the harp  she is hitting with little  ' hammers' ?    
 
C'est un psaltérion.
Origine : moyen-âge ; Voir cythare.
Trés utilisé en musique baroque.
« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2010, 2:27pm by schisma » offline

Aider à parfaire n'est-il pas plus utile que dénigrer ?
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound   Un__Abel.mp3
« Reply #11 on: Jul 29th, 2010, 11:00pm »
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AAAAAUGH ...  Frustration!!!  
 
 I have been trying to make some mui Viol instruments from combinations of synth and 'mangled' keyboard cellos, violas and violins,  and met a few problems.  
The general timbre can be matched fairly well, and you can  make a rough likeness of some styles of playing.  
The trouble is that what makes the best  viol sound pleasing to me is its sensitivity,  the  constant variation in bow attack and timbre change over the note.  
This is proving difficult!
 One really needs a very high quality sample set of every articulation played by  a viol virtuoso, and then ( somehow) integrated as a set of mui instruments.  
 
All I have so far,  is viol instruments with a variety of attacks and with (mostly) the same fixed slight change in timbre over the note.  
 
 I have attached some  examples and if anyone thinks they could make  use of the instruments please say so,  and I can place the mui files here.  
 
Are any of these styles anything like what you want lourivera?   Or have you created an instrument of your own?
 
                                                  -------------------------------------------  
 
The  first example  is vaguely  in the style of the Abel 205 for bass viol.  
The mui viol in this  is an 'attack' version of the sound, and volume rising effects and parameter curves were used to modify it to other bow strokes.  
An alternative is to use  the slow mui instrument and make a separate attack sound on a duplicate staff, which is applied with different velocity as needed.  Not sure which is the best method, but something like this  has to be done to begin to capture the variety of bowing used by viol players.  
In theory, one could make a  script which applies to selected notes a proper volume envelope by using the  volume parameter  curve,  and another envelope to the treble filter. .. but hmmm... well .. perhaps later.      
 
 It may be common for the real instrument to be tuned down a semi tone (old pitch? ) as it needed to be in C# minor.
 So it was sketched in D minor on the keyboard, and with amazing luck  made to fit to the fixed note position of HA  for editing ...  and then dropped a semi tone.  
There is a very slight additional instrument sound  in the example, but will see first if anyone is interested.  
 
muddle
« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2010, 11:11pm by muddle » offline

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Re: Viola da Gamba sound   consort_style.mp3
« Reply #12 on: Jul 29th, 2010, 11:09pm »
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The second example is  the more restrained consort playing style.  
 The Viola Da Gamba here is the even toned one, playing the lower  parts.  
 
 The second tune ( accelerated Gabrielli) is  for fun, using the fastest viols.  
The bass viol is duplicated an octave lower at times as it seemed more interesting that way.  
 
In both tunes the treble viol is  an attack sound using volume rising and curves for different bows.  
 
cheers all,  muddle.
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benosterhouse
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Re: Viola da Gamba sound  
« Reply #13 on: Aug 20th, 2019, 4:46pm »
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This is 9 years late
But here is a Gamba instrument I made!
I saw there weren't a ton of virtual Gamba instruments in existence, and I'm a classically trained cellist, so, after borrowing a Gamba I was able to adapt my playing to Gamba and make a virtual instrument out of it.
Here are some examples of what it sounds like:
https://soundcloud.com/ben-osterhouse/sets/viola-da-gamba
 
I also made a whole video about all the features and cool stuff I figured out while making it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_7N40EiXoY&t=20s
 
I'm selling it here: https://www.kontakthub.com/product/viola-da-gamba-kontakt/
 
I don't know if anybody checks this forum much, but if you do, and are into virtual instruments, you can learn about more of the instruments from my youtube channel.  
 
Best,
Ben
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