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   Author  Topic: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  (Read 5626 times)
Arietta
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Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« on: Mar 14th, 2021, 11:26pm »
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Hello! I posted something on the democratic workshop related to something in Virtual Singer. This is just a post boost.
 
Here is the post: http://www.myriad-online.com/cgi-bin/workshop/YaBB.pl?board=request;acti on=display;num=1615364343
 
To sum it up, it's a call for an update to Virtual Singer where it fixes its most prominent issues like, audio level issues such as peaking/clipping, timing/delay issues like slowing down in the middle of phrases and phoneme editing issues.  
 
Please take the time to read it and if you are for it, please show your support! Thank you.  
 


 
Edit by Sylvain: I quote here what you wrote in Democratic Workshop, for readibility of this topic, as most users visit the main forum, not the DW.
 
on Mar 10th, 2021, 9:19am, Arietta wrote:

Hello!
 
After using Virtual Singer on Melody Assistant for a while, I decided to try out Harmony Assistant to see what was different. Before evaluating Harmony Assistant, I used Virtual Singer as a stand alone singer for songs and covers rather than a tool of reference for compositions. Problems I encountered when using Virtual Singer this way were...
 

  • Timing Issues: When mixing, I found that VS goes off time very easily. At rests it either comes in very early or late. It also goes slower than the BPM during a phrase. This problem is more prominent when using VS in fast songs and using it to sing English and French. I did not encounter this issue when using Japanese as much. This leads me to believe that all languages except for Japanese have this issue maybe because of the final consonants. Even when lowering Time Shift to zero and raising the Fine Adjustment to maximum does not fix this issue.  
     
  • Audio Level Issues: This is self explanatory. On certain phonemes especially the [e] Japanese and English phoneme, the audio peaks. On the [a] phoneme when VS sings high notes, the audio goes quiet. When manipulating VS, I have to adjust the volume a lot which makes it very inconvenient.  
     
  • Phoneme Editing Issues: When editing phonemes using the SAMPA entry, sometimes the engine ignores the changes I made. I have to either put in a word that makes the sound I want or keep it that way.  

 


 
How can Myriad improve Virtual Singer in an update? The answers are very easy.

  • Implement the Sing With No Delay script permanently into Virtual Singer: There is absolutely no reason why this should be an optional script locked into Harmony Assistant. Human vocalists do not cut out rests all together. I have experienced a very slight delay when using this script but it is nowhere near as bad as when I use plain Melody Assistant.  
     
  • Level out the audio: self explanatory
     
  • Implement a phoneme editor: This should absolutely not be locked as a script. Say if you are in the lyric editor, there was an option to switch to a phoneme view. This way the appearance of the lyrics stay as is while you implement your SAMPA for that word in another mode that is invisible other than in phoneme view.

 


 
I believe Virtual Singer has a lot of potential! These fixes can make it much easier to use for vocal synthesizer users. But how will this benefit non-vocal synthesizer users? Generally no one likes being blasted with loud audio in the middle of what you are listening to. If the timing issues were to be fixed this can give a much more accurate sound to what your notation reads. You would not want a demo singer to go stir crazy with rhythm, right?
 
As for a phoneme view in the lyric editor, this is mainly for vocal synthesizers but could also benefit non-vocal synth users too. You could make your singer sound more human by making Virtual Singer open up on their vowels on high notes like human singers! So maybe instead of making VS sing an [I] US ENG phoneme, they could sing either [e] or [eI]. The ability to use phonemes outside of the language you are using would also be great! This could make VS also sound more human! Like diphthongs in Japanese, for example.
 
I would love to see Virtual Singer improve! I believe this update can benefit everyone and improve VSs most prominent issues.  

« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2021, 8:34am by Sylvain Machefert » offline

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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #1 on: Mar 15th, 2021, 8:20am »
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Hello Arietta,
I moved your topic into VS forum (it was in "other subjects").
 
You seem experienced with vocal synthetizers, that's great. I'm not sure we have such experimented user on our forum.
So your advices for enhancing VS are welcomed, in the limit of what could be done by the developpers.
 
To clarify: I'm admin of the forum but I'm not part of Myriad company. I help them to fight spammers, and to sum up issues encountered by users in a complex situation to a simple example that reproduce the issue.
I'm developper too (not Myriad), and I know we hate an issue "it doesn't work well" and we prefer "look at this example, at bar 3 on the first stave, at the word "xxx" ni the second verse, there is blah blah blah detailed issue".
 
 
Here is my reply made in the Democratic Workshop:
 
For the timing issue, I also noticed sometimes that VS is gradually singing faster than the instruments.
This is probably due to issue with a specific phoneme.
 
Recently, I isolated a case in Hungarian they fixed, but there can still have some problems. By the way, French or English are implemented since very long time and I didn't encounter the problem on French.
 
Could you provide a .myr file where you encounter the timing issue?
I'm not sure you are talking about the same thing I noticed.
 
Maybe we can locate the word(s) which causes the issue?
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #2 on: Mar 15th, 2021, 8:31am »
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No, you ARE advanced user of vocal synth, I listened your test on your SoundCloud. Impressive!
 
Did you tried RealSinger?
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #3 on: Mar 15th, 2021, 9:18am »
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on Mar 15th, 2021, 8:20am, Sylvain Machefert wrote:

For the timing issue, I also noticed sometimes that VS is gradually singing faster than the instruments.
This is probably due to issue with a specific phoneme.
(...)
 Could you provide a .myr file where you encounter the timing issue?

 
I too met a recently a similar problem, of the singer running faster than the music (translation of a French expression).  
I need to find it back, it may be linked to a too short duration in the definition of a phoneme.  
 
But, for sure, we need an example. I already suggested it when you asked, perhaps for the same situation:  
 
 Topic: Virtual Singer Cuts Syllable Early
 
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2021, 10:21pm by Sylvain Machefert » Logged

André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #4 on: Mar 17th, 2021, 9:38pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2021, 8:31am, Sylvain Machefert wrote:
No, you ARE advanced user of vocal synth, I listened your test on your SoundCloud. Impressive!
 
Did you tried RealSinger?

 
Here is a folder of examples. 5MB isn't going to be enough to show you. Myriad Issues.zip (255 MB)
 
Thank you for the compliment! I'm not that great with vocal synths, yet. I have used RealSinger but I don't like the sound and the way it makes voices sound. I much prefer the original synthesized voices!
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2021, 10:24pm by Sylvain Machefert » offline

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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #5 on: Mar 17th, 2021, 9:40pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2021, 9:18am, Andre_B wrote:

 
I too met a recently a similar problem, of the singer running faster than the music (translation of a French expression).  
I need to find it back, it may be linked to a too short duration in the definition of a phoneme.  
 
But, for sure, we need an example. I already suggested it when you asked, perhaps for the same situation:  
 
 Topic: Virtual Singer Cuts Syllable Early

 
Your link takes to the home page of the forum. Not to worry! Here is a folder if examples!  
 
Myriad Issues.zip (255 MB)
 
I'm glad to hear that you heard the same issues I had!  
 
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2021, 10:26pm by Sylvain Machefert » offline

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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #6 on: Mar 17th, 2021, 10:46pm »
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I edited messages to fix the broken links.
 
I opened the digital girl myr file and tried to duplicate the first staff on a new staff,
to play VS and an instrument at the same time, to detect when VS starts to sing faster.
 
It copied partially, gave an error message.
I listened and have no difference until it reached the end of what was copied.
 
Comparing your wave files we can see that they have different times.
 
I'll try something else to demonstrate clearly the fact that VS is faster and detect when it starts.
 
Today I encountered the problem (you can see in another topic) when some notes have a velocity of 0. VS is lost, it sings illogical things.
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues   Digital_Girl.myr
« Reply #7 on: Mar 17th, 2021, 11:18pm »
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And now I found no problem
 
I copied the first staff without lyrics on a new staff.
On this new staff I set an instrument.
 
Instrument and voice play the same speed from beginning to end.
I added a kcik+snare to mark the beats. This is not easy to be sure of the singer precision on some bars, but here again the singer ends at the same speed thn this "metronome"
(maybe invisible on MA sorry, I used a HA feature)
 
So for now, I can't say I reproduced it
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #8 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 12:57am »
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on Mar 17th, 2021, 11:18pm, Sylvain Machefert wrote:
And now I found no problem
 
I copied the first staff without lyrics on a new staff.
On this new staff I set an instrument.
 
Instrument and voice play the same speed from beginning to end.
I added a kcik+snare to mark the beats. This is not easy to be sure of the singer precision on some bars, but here again the singer ends at the same speed thn this "metronome"
(maybe invisible on MA sorry, I used a HA feature)
 
So for now, I can't say I reproduced it

 
The issues come in when you use VS outside of the Assistants. When I render a wave file of my vocals, they don't align with the instrumental. That's why I had wave files of the vocals. When you compare one of the OG Renders to one of the VS waves, they don't align.
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #9 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 10:54am »
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Yes I noticed that VS or instrument wav file have different lengths.
I didn't try yet to put them in parallele in a sound editor.
 
But by the past, I heard such bad timing inside HA.
 
The wav file export bug could explain why one of my music is synchronous in HA but asynchronous in MyrWeb.
 
Thanks for your help
 
I'll do some tests and report to Myriad team.
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #10 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 11:24am »
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Can you tell me more on how did you exported ? your software and OS ?

  • iOS ? Linux ? Windows ?
  • Melody or Harmony ?
  • 32bit or 64bit ?
  • which options ? (normalize volume and others...)

 
the VS has less "blank" at the beginning than the music, one bar.
Did you change the position of the start of the music ?
 
I did exports in various frequencies, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz (yes, I have the Myriad HQ licence) and all files have same length.
I exported only the VS staff, my copied staff with instrument and a metronomous kick drum, they have same length, and they mix perfectly in my audio editor.
 
I should try with Melody Assistant
« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2021, 11:26am by Sylvain Machefert » offline

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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #11 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 1:23pm »
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Quote:
I did exports in various frequencies, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz (yes, I have the Myriad HQ licence) and all files have same length.
Bonjour Sylvain, de mon côté j'ai ce problème : effectivement les fichiers ont la même durée mais (du  moins en 48khz chez moi) il manque les dernières notes, ça veut dire que la musique joue plus lentement:  
Ci-dessus l'image de la fin de la musique : en haut le fichier 44.1khz la fin de la musique est OK. En bas le fichier 48khz. on voit la musique décalée vers la droite.
J'ai fait part de ce problème aux frères Guillion mais je n'ai pas de réponse à ce jour.
Amistats, Danièl.
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #12 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 3:10pm »
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Danièl, j'ai mixé en 44.1kHz un export voix uniquement et un export musique, pas de manque, parfaitement synchronisés.
 
Je vais faire de nouveaux tests pour trouver ce qui cloche.
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues  
« Reply #13 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 3:38pm »
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No problem either in 48kHz, restarting from the source MYR file without any changes :/
 
can't find the way to reproduce on my computer
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Re: Update Virtual Singer and Fixing the Most Prominent Issues   MA_Export_Settings.jpg
« Reply #14 on: Mar 18th, 2021, 4:25pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2021, 3:38pm, Sylvain Machefert wrote:
No problem either in 48kHz, restarting from the source MYR file without any changes :/
 
can't find the way to reproduce on my computer

 
Export Info
OS: Windows 10 64 bit with trial Myriad HQ
 
On MA I exported normally. On the ReadMe for SWND, it says that those files have been recorded externally through audacity. That's why the audio positions are different. Have you put the files side by side with each other? That's really when you should see the difference. The problem was so much more apparent when I was mixing the song's instrumental and Virtual Singer.  
 
« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2021, 4:32pm by Arietta » offline


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