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Topic: Participes passés en anglais (Read 915 times) |
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JP
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Participes passés en anglais
« on: Jun 23rd, 2022, 12:42pm » |
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Toujours le problème des participes passés en moyen anglais.
Suivant les bon conseils reçus sur ce forum j'ai écrit con-/-ceiv[#si]-/ed[#ved], / pour éviter un son intempestif
Par contre I /sat with /tears be-dew-/ed, sonne comme be-dew[#dju]-ed[#ud]
Dois-je écrire quelque chose comme I /sat with /tears be-dew[#dju]-/ed[#wed], ?
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ANdre_B
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;Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #1 on: Jun 23rd, 2022, 3:34pm » |
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Je vois deux choses importantes dans ces deux phrases:
- comme toujours dans des imparfaits, participes passés ou participes présent, le tiret est avant la désinence -ed ou -ing, et non avant la consonne précédente, comme on ferait dans d'autres langues. C'est quelque chose à respecter, car cela indique une césure, et même un mini-knacklaut après la consonne.
- Lorsqu'on veut faire entendre les deux syllabes séparément (en particulier avec deux notes), il faut en effet passer par Sampa. Avec quelle voyelle, on a un peu de choix.
-- un "e muet", soit [#@] (non-accentué) soit [#V] (accentué)
et à l'écoute je préfère le second. Mais pas [#e] qui est un vilain "é".
-- ou même [#i] car on entend aussi souvent un i muet dans ces mots
Et donc je vote pour
con-/-ceiv[#siv]-/ed[#Vd] et be-dew[#djuw]-/ed[#Vd], ?
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PaulL
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Re: ;Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #3 on: Sep 28th, 2022, 8:30pm » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2022, 3:34pm, ANdre_B wrote:Je vois deux choses importantes dans ces deux phrases:
- comme toujours dans des imparfaits, participes passés ou participes présent, le tiret est avant la désinence -ed ou -ing, et non avant la consonne précédente, comme on ferait dans d'autres langues. |
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En principe, mais si le consonant est doublé, on écrit, par exemple, "run-ning," pas "runn-ing," "a-bet-ted," pas "a-bett-ed."
Notez qu'en ce qui concerne la division des mots, il y a le système britannique et le système américain, qui ont leur différences. Il faut un bon dictionnaire.
Quand il s'agit de la prononciation, moi je préfère [#@d]. Mais c'est juste moi.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2022, 8:31pm by PaulL » |
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JP
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #4 on: Sep 29th, 2022, 6:52pm » |
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Merci de ces précisions
Couper entre les consonnes doubles est apparemment commun au français et à l'anglais, je n'aurais jamais pensé écrire ru-nning ou runn-ing.
Il me semble que dans cette discusssion tu m'avais recommandé [#ed]
J'en tiendrai compte la prochaine fois.
De toute façon les français accentuent systématiquement la dernière syllabe des mots sans en avoir conscience, ça change énormément la prononciation. Très difficile de faire chanter les gens dans une autre langue.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2022, 6:55pm by JP » |
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PaulL
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #5 on: Sep 30th, 2022, 10:16pm » |
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on Sep 29th, 2022, 6:52pm, JP wrote:
Vraiment? Apparamment, je ne suis pas si cohérent que je l'aurais cru. 
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PaulL
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #6 on: Oct 1st, 2022, 4:57pm » |
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En effet, j'ai regardé mon fichier de textes avec mes préférences SAMPA, et j'ai trouvé tous le deux, [#ed] et [#@d]. Je ne l'ai jamais remarqué!
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deejey
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #7 on: Nov 5th, 2022, 7:59pm » |
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 Found your exchange whilst looking for my own solution !
I would have expected the English to say "be-jeweled" (or reduced to "be-jewl'd" perhaps). I think referring to sparkling tears ?
I'm struggling with "con-spire-" over three notes and "fire-" over two !
The closest I've got is "con-[sp@ai]-[ah]" and "f[@ai]-[ah]".
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| « Last Edit: Nov 5th, 2022, 8:09pm by deejey » |
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PaulL
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #8 on: Nov 7th, 2022, 6:02pm » |
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In modern English, "bejeweled" is pronounced bee-JOO-eld, though in certain contexts it might be shortened to bee-JOOLD, which might be printed as "bejew'led". The pronunciation bee-JOO-well-ed ("bejewelèd"—note accent grave) would be odd and unusual, but I suppose one might find it in a poem that is old enough, or one written in an archaic style. So far as I know, the British "jewellery" and the American "jewelry" are both pronounced as three syllables by careful speakers, and two in very casual speech.
It is possible to find old poems with "fire" spelt "fyer", which gives a hint of how the word can have two syllables. There is a famous madrigal by Morely, in which the opening two words are set as "fy-er, fire".
In the modern spelling, I would divide the syllables as "fi-re", which should indicate the pronunciation in a way any choir would understand. The same with "con-spi-re", of course. The SAMPA you give would be suitable for a British choir, but in the American song, "Walking in a Winter Wonderland," an American would sing something more like "con-[#spaI]-[#j@r]" and "[#faI]-[#j@r]". (You should soon be able to hear the song many times over in U.S. shopping malls, during the six to eight weeks of the Christmas buying season.)
If you are interested in church hymns, two strange situations are likely to arise, "Church's" and "baptism", which, despite the spellings, are two- and three-syllable words in speech. The first is divided as Chur-ch's [#tS@r]-[#tS@z], the second as bap-ti-sm [#b&p]-[#ti]-[#z@m] or [#b&p]-[#ti]-[#zVm]. The written words are hyphenated this way only in songs; otherwise, "church's" is indivisible, and "bap-tism" is the only acceptable hyphenation.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2022, 11:04pm by PaulL » |
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deejey
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #9 on: Nov 11th, 2022, 2:01pm » |
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That is interesting Paul, thanks. I find the SAMPA table a little confusing since I rarely know when to use @, #. Some worked examples under/over the table would be useful.
I notice that you used con-[spaI]-[j@r] as an example, where the aI (alpha India, I was using al, alpha lima) is not prefixed.
I have also noted that the hyphenation between square bracket pairs, plays havoc with the appearance of the readable lyrics ! I'm sure there is logic at work but I am unable to see it. It all keeps me amused however !
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PaulL
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #10 on: Nov 17th, 2022, 11:12pm » |
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Thanks for catching the errors in my earlier post, which I have now corrected. The # is necessary, or VS will have problems.
Of course, one also needs to have text that will be displayed, since anything in brackets is taken as a command, not as displayable lyrics, hence "fi[#faI]-re[#j@r]" etc. I omitted the visible text in my earlier post, for the sake of clarity.
If you omit the # inside the brackets, you can spell a pronunciation (in the language of the lyrics) that VS can read. So, for example, you could have Broglie[broye] in the lyrics for a French singer, or Broglie[broy] for an English one. (I have been watching physics lectures, so that name comes easily to mind, lol!) But I find that SAMPA spellings, which require the # to be present, are more accurate and usually give better results.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2022, 11:14pm by PaulL » |
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SDoerr
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #11 on: Dec 3rd, 2022, 1:08am » |
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Can I use IPA on this forum? I’ll try.
For me (native British English speaker with a near-RP accent), an -ed ending set as a separate syllable (-èd if you will) will always be pronounced /ɛd/ when singing (but /ɪd/ when speaking). The suggestion of /əd/ sounds odd to me. If someone said or sang /bɪˈdjuːəd/ and I didn’t recognize the word, I’d write it as bedewered, as it rhymes with skewered.
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PaulL
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Re: Participes passés en anglais
« Reply #12 on: Dec 10th, 2022, 4:42pm » |
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Those sorts of niceties are beyond me. Even here in the U.S., there is enough regional variation (despite the destruction of most regional accents by television) to give rise to controversy if you try to define a standard pronunciation, and I imagine that it's even more so in Britain. In any case, I only use VS to get a rough idea of how the piece is going to sound when sung; I am not trying for a fully realistic performance by VS.
Moreover, VS is by no means perfect, and there remains a lot of work to be done with the language dictionaries, if my experience with the British and American ones is any guide. For example, the British dictionary has trouble with "Bethlehem," whereas the American one does not, and the American dictionary gets other words wrong that are correctly rendered in the British one. I continue to use the British dictionary in my VS voices anyway, because as a choir director I really do not like the sound of the American 'r' when sung. It's just too harsh. (And the other thing I have to contend with is the tendency to close to the final consonant of the syllable, which is a a pop-song technique developed by Mabel Mercer and Bing Crosby for radio singing. For church work, it is wholly unacceptable.)
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Le coeur a ses raisons, que la Raison ne connaît point.
Paul Littlefield, retired Church musician
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